#4: ADHD, autism, and RSD-a cultural lens

Join Atif and Pasha for a cross-cultural and emotional conversation about ADHD, autism, RSD and what it is like to travel right now as a neurodivergent U.S. citizen who is opposed to Trump (not fun). 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome back, everybody, to the Neuroinclusion Conversations from Across the Pond and Beyond podcast. I'm Pasha Marlowe here with Attif Chodtery again, my dear friend. And we are going to talk about whatever uh comes to our minds and our hearts about neuroinclusion that also meets the moment of the day. And how are you today? I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Yeah, I'm all right. Uh neurodiversity wise, I'm pretty good. I um I couldn't feel more across the pond and beyond. Like what do you know? It's been a hella I know we talk about it a lot, but it's been a hell of a political week for the world and neurodiversity. We'll get to that.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

But Craigy, they must have really wanted that ballroom, huh?

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Really wants that ballroom, yes, and and more and more. Yeah, it's it's you know, when we record every couple weeks, so much happens, uh, it seems in the world in between. Um, but yeah, but on a good note, um, I've been up all night because in Italy there was a uh organization that wanted me to present, and at 2 a.m. my time, US time, and I suppose uh 8 a.m. their time, we logged on and we did a couple hours of a neuroinclusion um workshop and training. And I I just thought it was very interesting, as you've mentioned, the differences in in cultures and how advanced or aware or mature people are in the process of neuroinclusion and how very basic I needed to be in terms of terminology and definitions, but also how interested they were and how at the core, even if they didn't have the knowledge of the language or all the neurodiversity affirming practices, they had a culture of care and compassion for humans that I don't see often. And so I said, you're already, you're already doing so much of the work, you know, that you that the specific practices and and wording isn't there is is less important than if you're treating people, you know, fairly and offering support depending on their needs and believing them. So it was a it despite it being 2 a.m., it was a bright light. Uh and now I'm in my car because I have no Wi-Fi at home. So um I might look and sound different than I did in other episodes, but I'm hoping it will it will last and work well.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

So thank you for your flexibility. Yeah, that's okay. And thank you for your battery. I hope it holds out. So if we lose you folks, it's just okay. It's just a battery thing, you know, and it's a light thing, right? We're all we we all go through these things. Um I personally like that. We're not perfect or slick, but we're perfectly sincere. And that's that's all we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

It's on brand. It's on brand.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Totally, totally. Um, so Pasha, I wanted to check in with you just as ever, from the US context to beyond. Uh, how you're feeling about you know what has been going on and how it may apply to the world or neurodiversity or even systems, you know, whatever you feel.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Well, the recent the recent drama was the supposed attempted assassination. I say supposed because we don't even know if it was real, and uh what a statement that our first reaction was, is this even real? So we're it's a bit like we're living in my country in a bit of a simulation or alternative reality where we have to check in with our minds and hearts and brains and nervous systems constantly to say, I know everyone's saying this happened, but does it make sense that it happened? And what do we really think? And honestly, there's just zero trust in leadership, in people in power, in the news. Uh, you know, if I if I saw it happen with my own eyes, I might not believe it anymore. So it's it's rather unsettling. And uh I very much enjoyed, I was in Switzerland for a week prior and coming back to this. The difference uh obviously there's not as much socio-political uh up people in Switzerland, uh, but the difference in my nervous system was dramatic uh returning to this country, the United States, from Switzerland. And so I'm feeling it.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Wow. I just want to add a couple of things. My brain just goes into as as you as you deliciously allow me to, but it just goes all over the place. But you're we're talking about whether the most I guess the leader of the country is ever believable. I know we're talking about a particular leader, I suppose. But isn't it weird, right? Because if you look to your leaders and every single single thing, and this doesn't have to apply to to a president, it could apply to your offices, your workplaces. What does your system do? If every single thing you feel is that maybe someone is a narcissist and they're your line manager, she or he or he or she is just never sincere in what they're saying to you, and you're trying to express your needs. And if your constant behavior or your constant feeling is disbelief, that would be natural, right? That would actually be fair. And then we're going back to this, is that it's the constant feeling, even though we're talking about a country where you know Lincoln was killed in a in a in a theater and and John F. Kennedy was killed in the in the in the you know in a car. So it's actually happened. Presidential murders have happened. And this fight and assassinations have happened across America and leaders all the time. And yet the immediate reflex is, hmm. Do you know?

SPEAKER_02 5:51

What's behind this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah. I actually I generally didn't notice that when the ear thing happened. I thought people really took it as this is real. Yeah. Um and I suspect people will probably think differently now after this one.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yes. And it's interesting because when when I no longer trust leadership or government or authority, and I and I distrust it more than ever, frankly, um what that does, you know, who can I trust it comes up in my mind. And unfortunately, this all over the last couple weeks has coincided with the very disturbing news of probably more now, but like 80 million men um looking at this website uh about sexual assault. Do you know what I'm talking about? No, no, tell me, say, it's it's almost too disgusting to share. But what what happened was there is there's an online basically course on how to sexually abuse or rape your partner, married or not, um, when they're asleep. And 80 million men at the time of last week, so it's more now, clicked on it. And and I thought that's more men than live in the country I'm in right now, Switzerland, where I was. But and then I honestly felt like again, who can I trust? And I just it just was very unsettling. The the the the numbers and my and I think about that only because you know, I think about the numbers of people who are still supporting Trump, the numbers of people who who are are so um violent. Um just is it's just shocking to me. And I shouldn't be surprised, but but I am still surprised.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Oh sorry, that was sobering, and I just assumed everybody knew about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

No, no, no, no, it's okay. It's it is sobering, but then that's what we're here to do, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah, and yeah, how that impacted my nervous system. Not just mine, but most every woman I've talked to.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Um I I I um look, yeah, absolutely. Uh wow. Yeah, I know massively. Do you know like I I I I haven't said I don't I hope I haven't said this before, but but I I it I'm aware of it. I'm conscious of my life. I'm 51 and I don't know a single woman in the world who can't tell me a story about something, do you know? That you know, the w the the walk home, the double walk, the the holding the keys in the hand, just being ready, the thinking about what time, you know. And and and things that happen in childhood they bear not can barely say, right? Yes. I don't know a single woman who hasn't got a story to tell. No, no. I don't know a single man who says, yeah, that's me.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

No, right? Exactly. Exactly. Uh that's interesting, right? And and you know who who who are the uh perpetrators and abusers, and and maybe is there a lack of understanding of what is abuse or assault uh in general. But but I will say, just from a therapist and mental health point of view, the result, outside of it being quite damaging to our nervous systems and our hearts, is that I'm talking to young women um or people uh childbearing age who have said to me in the last week that they love their daughters so much they don't want to birth them, that they don't want, they want to keep them in their hearts. They want to keep them in their womb and in their spirit, and they don't want to birth them, and they're deciding to not have children. And it was and I've heard that many times from my clients since that report. And it's so it was very it was very impactful to people. It was just one of many, many, many um, you know, moments of truth about men in power taking advantage of yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

I mean it's incredible. I I mean, I'm sure many of those listening, watching right now, um you know the French lady, uh I hope I'm saying her name correctly, and correct me if I am saying it wrong. Um, is it Gazelle Pellicot?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yes, definitely Gazelle, and I I cannot recall her last name, but exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yes. Yeah, but she says it, she says, you know, shame must change sides. Yes. You know, yes. Like that it isn't on women, it it is not on women to feel the shame, it has to be on men. You know? But you just you know Yeah, how do you find faith in the world and and and and people do, right? I mean, you find faith in the world, and we and the world is a much kinder place than we know. Because that kindness hides itself so often, you know? But it shows up in the case of urgency or it shows up in the randomness of strangers. But it's also a much darker place than we know. Because you know, from what you're telling me, and Giselle's Pellicott story is about was being drugged by her husband consistently.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

I I'm I'm afraid that story probably inspired this website.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

It's definitely not on my radar, but wow. Um and and it's okay, you know. Um, yeah, how do you build trust and love again?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

The circles get smaller and smaller, and I lean into the relationships that I that I've known for a long time, the relationships that have kind of stood the test of time, and and I also have to, you know, listen to my my gut and my instinct. I I feel very safe with you, I feel very safe with with some men, not a lot of men. Um, but but I do think it's contributing to the isolation and the loneliness we're seeing because people are more anxious, just in general now, not just women. Like I think people are more anxious to be outside in the world and away from what they know to be true and what they know to be safe. Um, and so I I I feel like that's having a a greater impact on our yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

I mean, I know not not in the context of I mean misogyny hurts men, and that's controversial, but people are wanting to hear it. It stops us being better people. In fact, it stops us from being better men. Um and so whilst we're not the first target of it, or certainly not the worst, our liberation is dependent on us playing a role in recognizing it and our power in it, you know. Um but but wow, it I mean, it's it's really quite something that I think about the interview that happened yesterday. I've forgotten the lady's name, she was very amazing where she refers to Donald Trump, you know, you know, and brings up the conversation of his leadership of of and children and and and really grotesque things. Uh you can guys can watch it yourselves. But him to actually acknowledge it. And I was watching that thinking, in years to come, this will be a film. Uh-huh. Yeah, this interview will be a film. And you know, I'd really implore people to watch it. But if you're not, you've seen it anyway, because I imagine it's going, yeah, it's quite hysterical. What is happening is Trump outright denying the worst of human attributes and saying, I am not a paedophile, I'm not a rapist of children. And this will be made into a film, but I think more than that, our great grandchildren will struggle to understand. Did you have a president that that this was happening and there were leaders hiding it, and there were these and such and such, and there were governors. I know this is really political folks for us public class trial, but but it's we're not saying anything that isn't out on the Epstein files or being demanded of the Epstein Files, you know. Um and I suppose I'm gonna bring it back to neurodiversity because anyone who's take objection to what we're saying, what's this gonna do in neurodiversity? It has everything to do with it. It has everything to do with how we feel safe in our civil societies, the leaders we vote for, the leaders that we have to endure. The role modeling our children see, you know, uh and and and wherever we ourselves are ever mentally safe wherever we are, you know. It has everything to do. And for you to say if I'm not, I'm gonna be sure I didn't get that wrong, that you felt safer in Switzerland than your own home.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Oh, by far. By far.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yes. That that is that is the point of this podcast, right? Across the pond and beyond. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Pasha, why why? What was the key distinction that you found?

SPEAKER_00 15:07

It was interesting because um I'm ADHD and autistic. So, first of all, my autism very much appreciated that when they say a train arrives at 9.07 and leaves at 9.07, it it leaves at 9.07 to the dot. That was very, very relaxing for my nervous system. I could count on it, it was predictable, it was certain. I could trust it, like just from a level of trust. I loved it. I loved that. Uh, that was interesting. Um, also, I I found it interesting. I jumped, I jumped off a mountain and paraglided. I flew through the air like a bird over the Alps um with my son. And I trusted this man who I'd never met other than knowing his name, Simon. And he said, just keep running. And I said, Do you want to talk to me about safety or security or a backup plan? He said, he said, no, I've just been doing this for a very long time. Just run and fly and enjoy. And I thought, weird. I did. And I trusted him and I felt okay. It was so interesting to me. Um, I said, why, why is that? And part, partly, I think it the infrastructure there is set up to be um reliable, uh clear, safe, quiet, like just quiet, um, quiet in the restaurants, quiet in the trains, uh, quiet traffic. Nobody's honking their horn here within a minute of touching down in Boston, in the United States. I was you know, honk, honking, sirens, just like overstimulation. So that was that was that was just really helpful. Um, the other end of it, just for what it's worth, as a uh person who has a lot of sensory issues, um, I was terribly bothered by the amount of smoking, uh cigarette smoking there in in every street and in every restaurant outside. I just found that challenging. That was the only thing I really felt quite challenged by. But had it not been for the smoking, I I probably would have just stayed.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, yeah. I mean, smoking in a restaurant is what we grew up with, but I I find it really repungent. Yeah. I'd like I find it weird. Like, why would someone go to such effort to make a nice meal and you can't taste it because people are smoking and they allow that?

SPEAKER_00 17:27

I was, you know, 8,000 feet up in the air at a on a terrace outside, like eating a hamburger, looking at the Alps, and people are just all around me smoking. I'm thinking, this is so strange. We're breathing in the freshest, cleanest air possible. That's why I'm here. So it may be mad. But um, but I that was my that was my only complaint.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

I get that. I never answered why a ration would allow people to smoke, not because of the smoking rules, but because you want people to taste the food. That doesn't make sense to me. But anyway, that's a pretty good and and did being in Switzerland as an American you know, like I don't know, I'm going back to the 90s, but I know Canadians used to put the Canadian flag on their bags to show that they're Canadians.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Does that is there a difference in Americans getting any kind of yes?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

We we said we're Canadian as much as as much as possible to avoid conversation as well as hate, frankly. Um unfortunately, it did not work on the trains because you have to show so much identification and your birth date is on there, and we do month, date, year so they could tell we were American. And I made a very I I paid just hundreds of dollars one day to ride these trains. And there was one little leg of the train trip that was maybe five minutes. I could see the station. And I I purchased the ticket incorrectly so that it was the station before rather than the correct station, five minutes out of five hours of a train. And they charged me$100, 90 Swiss, uh, because I made a mistake. But before she charged me, she said, ugh, American. I'm like, oh, I'm certain that that did not help because it was such an innocent mistake. And I I don't know if that's what contributed to it. But but I ended up feeling a lot of embarrassment and shame, not just because I made the mistake, but because of this, I'd been running through that in my mind, this like tone of voice she had, ugh, American. And in a store in one of the towns, I they said, Are you American? They asked us straight out, like, are you American? Because we were speaking English. And um, and we said, No, no, Canadian. They said, Oh, thank goodness, we would have kicked you out of the store. It was a watch. So go, and so it was just like being on guard on that was not fun. Um, and it just felt dangerous it in some ways. Uh so social, social.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

I wanna I wanna really uh give a moment for that. It's a big deal, huh?

SPEAKER_00 20:07

I mean first time. Since Trump was elected, this second time Trump was elected is is the only time I've felt I needed to do that overseas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

It's a big deal because I you know uh the first victims of oppression and tyranny are always internal before they become external, you know? Before the English destruction or what became the British Empire. Well, before the British Empire, it was the English Empire that was attacking the Welsh and the Scots and the Irish. And before it came to me, it came to them. Do you know? And and and if we look at fascism as anywhere before it goes to other countries, it first decides how to strengthen itself internally, do you know? The amount of Germans that were killed by by Nazis because they refused to accept this, you know? I I I know that that's a really hot potato in America right now, but we've touched on it before that there are Americans losing their lives resisting to us. What would really make me really mad is if the behaviors of people uh were actually acting in a way that would make me bitter or actually really make me rage. You know? Because clearly you're not a fan of this guy, and that's really clear. And I suspect most people traveling, Germany who travel the world, aren't, but that's that's maybe a little bit unfair because a lot of people are poor and resisting him but can't travel the world, do you know?

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yes, yes. I'm sure I will fall into some of that stigma and stereotyping just because I'm American. Interestingly, my mother's German, and um she has always been judged for being German neg negatively, despite the fact that she was, you know, a baby uh during Hitler's regime and Had certainly nothing to do with it, nor did support it. But all of her life she's dealt with that. So she's always felt shame and embarrassment and shared it with me that she wishes she hadn't been born into her country, into her family uh at that time. And so that that has always stayed with her. It's it's negatively impacted her whole life. And so I just find it interesting, you know, if they're if their plan is to disempower us, like that that's one way to do it, you know, to make people feel shame for being alive.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Isn't that but it goes back to the the the idea like none of us choose where we're born, none of us choose the ideologies that are imposed on us, none of us choose the creed or the religions, and yet we're expected to somehow spend the rest of our life defending it. And and then when we decide not to, they can face a lot of shame in our own communities. But yeah, absolutely, it's not it's a what I've always said that I can say this more in an age in a brown man's concept, right? That I'm always an ambassador for brown people, do you know? Um, and you can't say that enough when you're conscious of many people are conscious of the moment they followed around a straw, or do you know, or or there's a car, a moment in a car, and you could say you asshole, because especially if it's my fault, but I'm a brown asshole. It's more than that. I'm a you know I'm being polite, but it'll be something arsehole. And if it's my fault, then call me an arsehole, but my nationality has nothing to do with it, nor does my skin colour, do you know? Do you know not really? And so you're always the ambassador for those moments, aren't you? And you can't hide that, you can't really hide it. But in certain contexts, I guess you can hide it, but it's painful when you're reminded of things, no? I'd be really interested in how other people navigate. So those this touches on for me the conversations that we sometimes talk about when you look at ADHD and the phenomenon are seen as rejection sensitivity dysphoria? I I really like to talk about these things just because I want to know are they deeply connected to autism or ADHD and more so than people who don't see do not see themselves as ADHD. So do people with ADHD get far more rejection-sensitive dysphoria, far more pain in their bodies than others? I would really lean towards saying, I think that's true, but I really want to not pathologize. I really want to know. I only know what I know. When I know that someone's been really mean or rejected, it really goes through me. It can really stay with me for days and days. Um my wife can has a really amazing habit of not shaking it off. And if they don't mean anything to her, then she doesn't register this sense of care at all. Do you know? Interesting. Yeah, she's like, Well, they I don't owe them anything. Why am I worried about who their name is? For me, I'm totally broken. I'm like, oh my god, you know, there's this one thing and I haven't pleased this one person, you know?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Yes, yes. I I don't love the dysphoria aspect of it because it does pathologize it quite a bit, but I believe that many people are rejection sensitive, more so than others. And I don't know if I believe that it's biologically connected to ADHD, but I do think people who have experience with ADHD probably have experienced thousands more times of feeling uh misunderstood or undervalued or you know, embarrassed or or the shame in the actual rejections. I think it's based in actual rejection. And so that could probably lead to people who experience trauma or abandonment. And I imagine that rejection sensitivity would come up for them too. Um, but I will admit, embarrassingly, if there's one moment that I've replayed from my entire trip, it is that woman on the train and her snarky rejecting tone and how how small I felt. And the rest, and and why does my brain spot like that? I've been in tears. It's been days, it's been almost a week since that happened. I still talk about it and ruminate on it. So that's uh that's a part of my brain I really dislike is that rejection sensitivity. Uh, but it but I think it happens for some people, maybe only or especially when it's people they very much care about. For example, a child or a parent and rejection from them, how that lands and and really, really hurts physic physically and emotionally. Um but I I do see it more with my ADHD clients for sure.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

And and it's a mirror reflection on I I'm in deep denial that like the pathology side of things, you know, we talk about that a lot. So I'm in denial that, and I'm okay to be wrong, I'm in denial that it's a specific thing to ADHD and autism, and I think it's more of a specific thing to people who have been injured in their lives, and especially in their childhood. I think it's a specific thing to people who in that injury they are people pleasers, and they define their experience through people pleasing, which is a good thing, you know. Um sometimes, yeah, mostly. But I also in awe of people who can balance that, and they're not rude, but they're just straight up about what they let in and what they don't, and and having such a filter is really important, it's healthy, you know, it's self-love. But um I guess for the audience listening, and use the chat as you will, because we we will watch it all, but to think about your rejection sensitive dysphoria as an American traveling through the world, being answerable for things you have no say in. In fact, perhaps the opposite, things that you were desperately trying to reject yourself, and yet you're being judged as an American. How does that affect your rejection sensitivity dysphoria? Use the chat. If you're an autistic person watching this, uh and the nuances of what's happening, you know, which they are really important. Are they different in your world? And in what way? You know, I I would really want to know. I know that um you know, what what's been on my mind is uh is as often conflicts as we look at and I look at uh Lebanon and Iran and what's happening there. And I know it distills me, you know, it distill is not the right word. It shakes me each day. But I also really glue to knowing what is that that's happening to people and how can I serve them, you know, and in what way. But I also got wondering about this week, uh and I suppose it's sort of uh uh question for me and towards the end of what we're talking about today, but I was thinking a lot about conflicts and how some people you know, like so I don't know how you deal with it in terms of ADHD and autism, um, but I as far as I'm aware I'm not autistic at all, but I'm definitely strong on the dyslexia, strong on the dyspraxia, and and definitely strong on the ADHD. So I was working with somebody who needed to meet me three times in order to plan for a podcast, and I really like this man, he's a really decent human being. And I was just like, wow, it's really tiring. I've got to do this twice in order, whereas the best thing I can do is just freestyle when I just arrive on the podium, as it were, you know? That's worked for me, but could not work for this person naturally because of the autism. And it got me thinking about that I a such care for this person, I think it works. But what would happen if somebody who's autistic, really, really regimental, meets my ADHD, sees it as neglect when it's not, sees it as irritable, it might be, um, see it as uncaring, which it's definitely not. No, you know, and interpret that. And how would our relationships function?

SPEAKER_02 30:17

You know?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

And I don't know what it is to be both ADHD and autistic. I don't know if that's a clash of civilizations in your mind or not.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Sometimes, although what you're referring to when I talked about the presentation early this morning, this came up where an ADHDer works very well with urgency and on the in the moment, improvisationally wanted to present something for the team. And there were people on the team, I don't know if they were autistic or just wanted a little bit more preparation and time to digest and process the information, said, We need to see these slides before you present them. And the and the ADHD was like, no, no, no, I got it. Trust me, it's gonna shift. At the moment you need it, it will happen. So, does that person's needs matter more than the team who was feeling some anxiety and some resentment was going back and forth, and it did harm their relationship. And so I was I was suggesting that in that moment the the leader, the manager, the supervisor, the team lead, whatever, could maybe help navigate that and first of all make sure that everyone knows that everyone's needs do matter and that that these folks for their nervous system require a little bit more prep time and and time to process and time to prepare, while as this person does very much enjoy the urgency and enjoy the spontaneity. And how can we honor the opposing needs and find some compromise, if you will, that that that meets everybody in the middle? But I think the first step would be to honor and to recognize where people where people's needs are and for people to express it. You know, for you to express that you prefer to just do the podcast without any uh practice, and then for your friend to express that he really needs at least three meetings, how can you meet in the middle?

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yes, yeah, terror. Mostly my way around it is just give them what they want, you know? And and just but I also say, and I I I mean you've you've we've done a few of these, so you know, I never know what we're gonna talk about. I just know what I feel, do you know?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

And that's I find out one minute before because just me.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

So and that works for us, right? You know, it works for us. And and folks, you know, whatever we're saying here, this is as unrehearsed as it gets, you know. There's a reason for that because it comes from the heart, it's not scripted, it's not trying to make this about likes and and stuff, but there is something about the impact we make, and we can measure that. But yeah, absolutely, it's unscripted. And and I work that way, you know. Um but I don't there is a day, so I've come to uh be aware of a day, and I'm gonna uh just name check someone who's dear to my heart, has recently come become a friend, a man named Jerk, he is in Amsterdam, and he's one of many people working on neurodiversity pride, and that's on the 16th of June. But anyway, of course we should always have neurodiversity pride, and that's a day for every day, really. Um, but what I've come to understand about this day is that it's also an opportunity for people to say sorry to other people that they have made may have let down. Now we can't really say sorry for things that the way we're built, but we can say sorry, look, I'm sorry that this had an impact on you. I'm sorry that my recognition or my way of orientating the world wasn't quite what made this work, but it wasn't intentional. And I'm really excited that we can mend our friendship through it, you know, or we can strengthen our friendship through it. I really like that, that there are neurodiverse folks who should be making time to say sorry to other neurodiverse folks and hold that space together rather than pitting their needs against each other. Do you know?

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Yeah, I don't know if I would describe it as saying sorry or apologizing, as much as I think of it as a mutual responsibility and mutual respect.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Um I I I met with Turk in person. I went to Amsterdam, and he said, This'll this would make him laugh to know that I'm talking about this. He said, Let's go take a walk in my favorite park. I'll show you these sculptures that I love of mermaids or swans. I don't know what they were because they didn't exist. And he says, I'm sure it was here. I said, Turk, you're taking me on a walk through a park to see these, you know, imagine imagine imaginative, imaginative, imaginatory, I don't know, um uh sculptures. Anyhow, it was funny. It was funny that everything he said was they weren't there, they weren't there the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

They disappeared, they disappeared.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

That's brilliant, because there was a night where they were definitely there.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

And that's I believe you jerk. Anyhow, so now I tell them anytime I meet with them, I'll take a walk to see an imaginator imaginatory.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Oh, that's lovely. I absolutely love that. Absolutely, Pasha, that's wonderful. Listen, I'm gonna finish up, I think, but I just want to ask you as I would and invite you, but in this mayhem of week of a ballroom clearly coming our way or your way, um, what is it that keeps you hopeful?

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Uh I mean um, I mean, today it was talking to an organization in Italy who didn't know anything but wanted to learn everything. And uh that kept kept me hope keeps me hopeful. Um is graduating from high school in a couple years, and I think I've barely mentioned that he was sick for so many years I didn't even know if he'd be alive to see this day. So I'm grateful, and my gratitude is keeping me hopeful. Uh yeah, and getting to talk to you today.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Um good, good, yeah. For me, yeah, today's one is a really simple one. I I um the sun is shining, and I know that's you know a bit twee, but it's true. Um, I had a nice barefoot walk with my dog today, and and I and I find him deeply forgiving, especially when I'm on the phone, and I sometimes look and think, dude, I owe you time without my phone. I will make this up, you know. And then I had a moment where the people are on a conference call and my dog got a uh a stick, you know, it just because he loves wrestling with me, you know. I I lift the stick up like this, we do this. So I let I let the I put it on loudspeaker and I just put my phone on the floor. I can hear what they're saying, but they but they couldn't see there was a video, you know. So I was just wrestling with my dog, and I was just thinking, what a life. I'm in a meeting right now, and I'm just wrestling with my dog, and I can hear what's going on, but uh I'm in barefoot on the grass. This this is a sunny day, this is my day, do you know? So there was that. My second thing is that you're here as always, and it excites me. And you're on a car, your internet is hanging out of a house, it's not working a house, but you're managing in your car on a laptop, which and I just think, well, that look, that that's the best, that's what we do, right? We spontaneed rather than counseling. We just press up, share the truths, deal with our realities. It's brilliant. I wish more people did it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Yes, I I felt like this was the most neuro-inclusive thing to do because we we are always, you know, talking about how we should do things differently, how we shouldn't always work in a conformative way to the standards and norms that have always existed. I know that the standard and norm is to do a podcast inside with a ring light and a microphone. Um, but the alternative was to not share with people. So it felt it felt like, okay, can we do this differently? Uh, and is that okay? And if we weren't talking about neurodiversity, I might not be as compelled. But but I'm so glad we are.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Good, good. And for your background, you can't tell, and you won't see it from my eyes, but behind you, it looks like there's an NFL game happening, you know? And it's just sort of the most American thing I can see in the background.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Elementary school uh children at recess uh game. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

It just looks like this you're outside this NFL game. So that's very an American thing that we grew up looking at.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

And I'm in my truck, I'm in a pickup.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Yeah, so it's the most American thing I can see.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Um brilliant, Pasha. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for joining us. Um, we're gonna do more of these, of course, and we are gonna invite guests. But for now, we're just enjoying this little ride that we're having with you all. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Absolutely, take care, everyone. Bye-bye.